With Foundation Season 3 in the rearview, we attempt to take a holistic look at the entire season and put it all into perspective, not just within the show but its production. Spoilers to come as usual!
We’re joined by Travis Johnson, Friend of Stars End, formerly of the Black Alert Podcast and Star Trek Podigy, both Star Trek Podcasts, and much more!
“What in the Actual Podcast?”
I feel like we’re crawling from the wreckage. Travis, however, enjoyed the season and was looking forward to discussing it! I hope we didn’t bring him down.
But where are we? The Genetic Dynasty? Gone! Demerzel? Melted! The Luminists, Cloud Dominion, and the Galactic Council? Devastated! David Goyer and a lot of the creative staff? Shuffled off! Roxann Dawson? We don’t know!
Yet, the robot head we’re calling Giskard has WiFi, and it looks like robots writ large will become an important force in what’s to come.
Season 4 has officially been greenlit, but will we actually see it? And is there hope for the narrative going forward? Once again, we try to puzzle it all out! Join us!
It’s time to vote in the Third Newly Biannual Hari Awards for Foundational Excellence, all about Foundation on Apple TV+’s Season 3! Please help us and vote in the survey below. The survey will be open for one week, until Saturday, October 11, 2025, at 3:00 pm EDT Friday, 10 October 2025, at 5:00 pm EDT.
And please comment! We look forward to hearing from you!
Our season three recap episode will drop this weekend! Then we’ll be recording the awards show on the evening of the 11th 10th!
Hoo boy! That was one hell of a season finale, wasn’t it? You may have noticed that none of us were exactly bright-eyed and bushy-tailed as we remonstrated about Foundation’s Season 3, Episode 10, “The Darkness.”
“The Darkpodcastness.”
Spoiler Alert, as usual. Of course, you can listen without watching first, but this one needs to be seen to be believed.
But there were small photons of light trying to break through the shroud; we were joined for our conversation by Cora Buhlert, the 2022 winner of the Hugo Award for Best Fan Writer. Cora has an incandescent and extensive collection of commentary and fiction. Want to check it out? Start at her blog, CoraBuhlert.com! Her latest foray into fiction is “Queen of the Communist Cannibals,” published in Cliffhanger Magazine.
And speaking of cannibals, how about that David Goyer? Okay, “cannibal” might not be entirely fair, but he recently said that one of the reasons he’s stepping away from the show is that he “was having a hard time figuring out how to keep doing my vision of the show on a smaller budget.” Is that what this is? Full Metal Belt-Tightening? Who needs to send out pink slips when you’re writing the script?
In which we ruminate about Foundation, S3E09, “The Paths that Choose Us.” Spoiler Alert, as if that wasn’t obvious.
“The Podcasts That Choose Us.”
If you thought that episode 8 was intense, this one was a philosophical gut punch after another.
And they come, fast and powerful.
We see the full extent of the Mule’s power as Gaal tries to free Warden Greer.
And we see Dusk, despite the “genetic drift,” doing the most Cleonic Thing possible. If you thought the destruction of Anachreon and Thespis was intense, you’d better buckle up! Sad, alone, and desperate to matter, even his final meal is an act of spite.
Demerzel is questioning. Rather than following an efficient, structured algorithm, a plethora of paths try to choose her. Can she find guidance in the Prime Radiant?
And finally, Brother Dude has escaped the compost heap and is rushing toward the Imperial Palace with the Brazen Robot Head that we can only call Giskard for some reason. Can Giskard help him make amends with Demerzel?
So watch the episode if you haven’t yet, and then join us for the show! What does it all mean? We’re teetering on the razor’s edge. Come see where we fall! Let’s GO!
Join us for another barn burner of an episode as we look below the surface of Foundation, S3E08, “Skin in the Game!” Brother Dude goes on trial, Brother Dawn wakes up, and Brother Dusk is up to something so sinister that Demerzel is preconfessing. We’re picking up speed as we slide into the inevitable conclusion! Also, what’s up with Bayta? Don’t miss this one!
Foundation, S3E07, “Foundation’s End” is another episode that demands analysis! And has big revelations! Don’t tell anyone, but I may have squeed. We have another special guest to help us wrap our heads around this one!
“Podcast’s End”
Spoiler alerts, as usual. And don’t let the title frighten you; we’re not going anywhere!
In this one, she names the robot that dare not speak its name. Plus, brother dude goes on a trip that makes 2001: A Space Odyssey seem tame in comparison! And a surreal fairy tale that probably has something to do with “the Mule’s” backstory! A bit, a bit. To quote the great Hari Seldon, “Tragic story, I wonder how much of it is true.”
We’re joined, once again, by Renaissance Man Extraordinaire, Paul Levinson! Since he was last on the show, Paul has published a short story, “In the Dybbuk’s Pocket,” and expanded the short story we discussed last time into a novel, It’s Real Life: A Natural History of The Beatles. Paul and some friends did a reading from the novel at Big Red Books. You can check that out here!
But first, join us for our deconstruction of what Paul calls ‘by far the best of all the episodes (of Foundation) so far! Once again, you don’t want to miss this one! Let’s GO!!
Panicky Mule, not a nightmare but “a vision.” Pritcher… “He was like me… I realize… he gave me a great gift.”
Initially, I wondered if this was “the Mule” exhibiting powers without Magnifico. But, “I felt I was wearing someone else’s dreams.” Says otherwise. Combine this with his soliloquy on the jump gate; I think this tells us he’s not the guy pulling the strings.
“I have to destroy her even if I have to destroy everything to do it,” is threatening, but it could also be desperate. We don’t actually know the range of these mental powers. For that matter, this compulsion could have been planted by Magnifico long ago.
The Beggar
Perfect repeat of Demerzel confronting Gaal from S3E05, but it continues.
She claims C25 was killed 12 seconds into that airlock explosion.
Looking back, it’s about 20 seconds after the explosion that we lose sight of Dawn after he is sucked out of the airlock. I’m pretty sure he’s alive at that point. I’m not sure I believe her. This could be Demerzel trying to get the emotional high ground.
“I raised him! I watched his first steps!” That looks like real anger. Is it?
It certainly seems to be after the little dust-up between the two. Demerzel has questions.
“The Millennium Torus” is actually “The Chaser.”
Sounds like a beverage. “The Climber” might be more apt.
Magnifico is playing the visi-sonar as the ship approaches Terminus. Bayta is solicitous of him, calling him “puppy.” That is certainly the demeanor he wants to portray.
The foreshadowing is coming fast and thick. “You and I… we’re good at making people love us.”
They are met with hostility. The actor playing Randu looks a lot like William Windom here.
Torin tries to counter the hostility by name-dropping Pritcher. I didn’t expect that to work. Joanne knew they’d be arrested, but I didn’t see it coming.
Now I have to ask, how much of this is Magnifico’s doing? On second watch, I’m now expecting that Pritcher has already been compromised by “The Mule.”
It’s interesting because we know that The Mule’s control is subtle. It changes allegiances while leaving the personality largely intact. If Pritcher HAS, at this point, already been compromised, given that he’s a member of the Second Foundation, he could be laying the groundwork for Magnifico‘s arrival.
That hangs together nicely. Otherwise, Magnifico‘s range would have to be effectively infinite. That would be a power level nearly impossible to contend with.
On the other hand, Pritcher sure seems to be sold on the idea that Magnifico merely intensifies the Mule’s powers. The control would have to be especially nuanced for that to work. Or Pritcher could be a great actor. Or I’m wrong.
But pitting Magnifico against this Mule in a psychic battle has its appeal.
Speaking of subtle, referring to Torin as Bayta’s “pet” is an indication that he isn’t the sweet, hapless, xxxxxxx that we’re thinking here.
Mycogen
C24 is in full Brother Dude mode as he walks through an outdoor market. He’s watching a news broadcast as I ponder just how unMycogenian this place is.
One of the vendors makes me wonder: could that be Mother Rittah?
This exchange is straight from the books.
“Dainties. Raw dainties. For the outside market, they’re flavored in different ways, but here in Mycogen, we eat them unflavored—the only way.”
She put one in her mouth and said, “I never have enough.”
Seldon put his sphere into his mouth and felt it dissolve and disappear rapidly. His mouth, for a moment, ran liquid, and then it slid, almost of its own accord, down his throat.
He stood for a moment, amazed. It was slightly sweet and, for that matter, had an even fainter bitter aftertaste, but the main sensation eluded him.
“May I have another?” he said.
“Have half a dozen,” said Raindrop Forty-Three, holding out her hand. “They never have quite the same taste twice and have practically no calories. Just taste.”
She was right. He tried to have the dainty linger in his mouth; he tried licking it carefully; tried biting off a piece. However, the most careful lick destroyed it. When a bit was crunched off a piece, the rest of it disappeared at once. And each taste was undefinable and not quite like the one before.
“The only trouble is,” said the Sister happily, “that every once in a while you have a very unusual one and you never forget it, but you never have it again either. I had one when I was nine—” Her expression suddenly lost its excitement and she said, “It’s a good thing. It teaches you the evanescence of things of the world.”
— Prelude to Foundation
Dude gets to Song’s apartment. We see a look of recognition and fear on Song’s face.
On the Beggar
Demerzel worked with Hari, answering why he gave her the Radiant. Early on, Hari pointed out that assisting Foundation and Empire were not mutually exclusive goals in the short term. First, there’s a balancing act (emphasis mine). Demerzel provided the data Hari needed to complete his model.
Could that be part of the glitch? If the programming is conflated with the data, the end of the Cleonic Dynasty is the end of Demerzel’s world, according to her current operating system.
And she realizes that the so-called shadows in the mathematics are the Second Foundation.
Gaal confesses to her dumb plan from the last episode. Of course, the Mule isn’t in the plan. Apparently, neither of them is; she calls herself and the so-called Mule “outliers.”
But if the mathematics breaks down whenever either of them is factored into the plan, how is she confidently predicting what the Mule will do? The whole basis of the dumb plan is what Gaal thinks the Mule will do next.
Gaal goes on about the Spacer’s concept of time, and it reminds me a little of Star Trek’s Wormhole aliens and a lot of this.
And we get a welcome bit of detail dating back to when Gaal woke up during a jump. “I saw my lifetime as a line, and then as a plane, and then I wrapped that plane around me like a blanket, and it was a shape that I could manipulate.” Nonsense, but evocative nonsense.
“We need to mind meld. I doubt you will enjoy it.”
New Terminus
Ebling!! With a pocket watch!!
Indbur and Randu are squabbling. Torin gets to the point. ”The Mule is coming here.”
“Just listen to Magnifico play,” says Bayta. This is a bad idea. I’m sad that we’re probably abandoning the plot point about Magnifico never manipulating Bayta.
Indbur doubles down. “That’s not dumb enough! I’ll listen! You’ll listen! Everyone who matters will listen!” It’s nice when the characters being stupid is driven by the plot.
Back to the Beggar
“I can extrude filaments from my body and access your brain via your sinuses” made me laugh really hard! Spock never did that!
New Terminus
I think this almost seems like cheating on the part of the narration. Magnifico plays the visi-sonor, and the Traders and the Foundationers realize they can all join hands, sing about Coca-Cola, and defeat the Mule.
“That’s the way it works, it disarms you.” No crap.
They’re all looking up at the sun! And only the smart one has glasses! Also, how is he the only guy at the vault?
Mycogen
C24 gives Song some candy. That doesn’t look like a box. Where is the rest of the box?
It’s interesting to see Dude so far out of his comfort zone that he’s kind of a mess.
Song seems completely different and very transactional.
I thought Cloud Dominion needed special technology to restore memories. This process seems more like opening a can of Coca-Cola.
C24 says, “You looked at me and saw a person who might do you a kindness, so I did.
Song doesn’t want the memories back. It wasn’t part of the deal. Also, she doesn’t want to breach her contract. It seems to be very lucrative.
This has to end up at “Kindness. I’ll never try that again.”
The Beggar
“My mind, to your mind. Your thoughts to my thoughts,” this time with glowing red fingertips and terrifying tendrils.
The two share Gaal’s vision, and we learn some things. Demerzel says that the encounter with the Mule will happen in the Imperial Library. I wonder if that means the Vault.
That’s an odd place for an eclipse motif. Demerzel has cycled through a hard reboot. Could she have returned to factory specifications? That would save us some time.
After the fight with the Mule, we discover that Gaal will end up “orbiting the ergo sphere of a black hole.” Gravity that is so strong, not even time can escape. That did not end well for Bill Potts.
Pritcher’s Cell
Indbur has figured out that Han has divided loyalties. In a lie by omission, he simply states that he’s loyal to the Seldon Plan.
Indbur leaves him in his cell and leaves for the Vault. This must be important in the next episode. But does Han save the day or drive the last nail into the coffin? Even he may not know for sure.
Mycogen
Song, who we learn is really Songbird-17, has called in reinforcements. C24 never should’ve tossed that personal aura. “If I ever told you I loved you, it is because I was scared of you. I never could’ve loved you.” Ouch.
This isn’t going at all where I thought the Mycogen storyline would go. I was hoping for stories about Daneel from Mother Rittah, learning about robots (yeah, I know, that’s Billybotton), and all sorts of huge revelations. None of that so far.
New Terminus
Ain’t no party like an eclipse party! Someone should tell the producers that totality only lasts a couple of minutes.
That looks like Stonehenge in the background.
“I thought he’d be taller.”
Like Salvor, Vault Hari has no time for random data with pretensions.
Just like in the book, Hari thinks the situation with the traders is the third crisis. “A too undisciplined outer arm pitted against a too authoritarian central government.”
“But, what about the Mule, Dr. Seldon?”
“What is the Mule?”
The Warden gets a phone call, but how did “the Mule” get her number?
The vault has a Sunroof. Opened, we can see Foundation ships firing on each other.
Apparently, Vault Hari is also undergoing a hard reboot. This Hari, like Cleon 1, had a lot more agency in previous seasons. And everyone flees the Vault.
The Beggar
It seems like the Cleonic programming still exists, but Demerzel allows Gaal to live. That gives me a faint hope that the first law still exists somewhere in there.
Demerzel learns of the sack of New Terminus. “The Mule” could be on Trantor, “in a heartbeat.“ Why doesn’t Demerzel ask Gail to bring her back to Trantor? That’s gotta be quicker than using jump gates.
New Terminus
It’s disconcerting to see the Vault turn black as everyone runs for their lives. Will we get Bayta’s Kooky Crew when some survivors reach the Beggar?
Review:
The second run through of this one was way more fun than usual. That’s mainly because, on the first run through, it became obvious that Magnifico was laying the groundwork for “the Mule’s” attack.
Not quite as great as S3E04, but solid and exciting! The revelations here are big and
As always, my reactions to the episode as I watched it and rewatched it. Unfortunately, this one did not exactly get more interesting upon closer scrutiny.
This is a very cool shot with the hoverbike driving vertically down the side of a building. It does make me wonder about the topology of Trantor. This could be C24 descending into Mycogen, except he seems to be exiting a building with a roof that we saw from above. Could energy and technology be so cheap that we would use antigravity tech on a parking garage? Seems a bit like using a jackhammer to drive in a thumbtack.
Mycogen
Here we go! The whole thing has a 1940s detective movie kind of feel.
Is that C24? They are either showing us that it is him or it isn’t him.
Those hoverbikes look like they were designed by the Federation. Two nacells, red in the front, blue in the back. Is this what it would look like if Star Trek and Star Wars had a baby?
Hey! Sunmaster 18! In a very dark sector. I bet he has seasonal affective disorder.
Did not see that coming. But I suppose I wasn’t meant to. C24 paid someone to take his place on the hoverbike, but showing him on the bike before is kind of a cheap trick.
“Above,” Demerzel finds Mavon’s body, and she’s tracking C25. “My Cleons are scattered.”
“Dawn, I will deal with myself,” isn’t interesting. “I know exactly where Day has gone. We will not see him again. And he will not trouble us,“ is.
The Beggar, on its way to Clarion Station.
“The Mule and I have some talents in common,” says Gaal. C25 asks, “Did you compel me to work with you?” “I tried not to… sometimes it’s hard to tell,” is an interesting answer from Gaal. I originally thought it was surprisingly honest.
New Terminus
Indbur is, unsurprisingly, being an ass. Han tries to convince him that the Mule is important, with little success.
Han is unrepentant, “I knew there’d be consequences. I just judged it worthwhile.”
But he’s also not as intelligent as he thinks he is. “… The Mallows may have inadvertently done something useful,“ underestimates them.
They purposely shine a flashlight on Han’s ass. Hey! Over here! Look!!
Sephone takes Han’s necklace. Jealousy? She is pretty tough here; very Maria Hill.
[I noticed on YouTube somewhere that the necklace is actually the pouch that contains Gaal’s prayer stones. That’s an intensely personal item; one that seems far too intimate given Gaal’s attitude about the relationship in episode four.]
The Millennium Torus, what I’m calling Torin and Bayta’s ship.
Did jump ships emerge from clouds in season one or two?
Is “Sweetheart” the name of the ship or the name of the OS?
The ship’s pretty banged up. “Air conditioning is fully operational.” But Magnifico is playing the Visi-sonor.
A good OS would give a margin of error. “Three jumps” must mean “maybe two, maybe 4.” Having the OS provide a probability or margin of error would make sense.
Torin snaps harshly. Did Magnifico do that? He’s apologetic as soon as the “music“ stops.
Radole… I mean Haven
Still no good explanation of a tidally locked planet.
They didn’t listen when the OS told them communications were down. And they get blasted out of the sky for it.
Let this be a lesson to you: when approaching a ribbon world, fly parallel to the habitable bit. The Torus crashes on the dark side. They could be in real trouble, but Sunside would have been worse.
The Beggar
Gaal has a zygote from Salvor. Instant granddaughter, just warm and serve. Will we get Leah Harvey back in season 4? Harvi Harden?
“We can implicate anyone; we just need a name,” is a troubling might-makes-right attitude. The Salvor Harden from the book wouldn’t be caught dead saying that out loud.
Vynod Tarisk is wearing a movie-era Starfleet uniform. Or something damn close to one.
They’re going to blackmail this guy to try the enclosure thing again.
In Season 2, the Empire lost its entire navy trying to “enclose” Terminus.
C25 seems conflicted but committed, “We weren’t raised to be kind.”
The boy Emperor is playing dress up and trying to be incognito, but he doesn’t even have his stupid beard.
Chekov’s blaster.
Cassion Bilton is excellent here. Intense. Self-assured. Dominating. He kills without hesitation or remorse. He’s a Cleon. Has Gaal bitten off more than she can chew?
The literal blood on 25’s hands is a bit on point. There’s a quick glimpse of Gaal in the meeting.
The entire council is part of the Star Trek cosplay.
This is like C-Span with better acting. They vote, raising red lights for “no,” or white lights for “yes.” That’s more primitive than a simple set of clickers.
And just like that, Kalgan will be enclosed.
Haven
Uncle Randu boards the Millennium Torus and finds Torin, Bayta, and Magnifico safe in a handy human thermos. I guess he didn’t burn to death in S3E01.
Back in his house, it’s clear the Traders have money. But I wonder why they’re showing us that sword.
Randu is interesting. I want to reread the scene where Bayta meets him in the book. He says Magnifico over Torin would be “trading up.” Dick.
Torin leaves while Bayta tries to convince Randu to help bring Magnifico to the Foundation. We finally hear more than a few words from Magnifico. He’s not the erudite Mule that Joel wanted. In fact, he sounds like he is deaf to me. But we see no ASL in contrast to Preem Palmer. Meaning? Maybe it’s just an accent.
Torin and Magnifico wander through a mall or an airport, and we get some backstory for Torin.
“Bayta is charming your uncle. I’ll play a little. Maybe it will help her.” Magnifico seems completely innocent and kind of sweet. Even though I’m expecting the obvious implications, will there be some kind of twist to it? I would like that.
This bit from Bayta is nice. She and Torin have a real bond. “… now we’ll rise or fall together.”
And she’s figured out quite a bit and has postulated a connection between Magnifico’s music and “The Mule’s” powers. Textually, this is what the show has been telling us. I don’t think it’s quite right, but it does give her some potential influence with the Foundation. Randu will come along for the ride since that can only help the Traders’ cause.
That Jump Gate
We see the Enclosure of Kalgan taking shape as Empire ships flood through the jump gate. The fact that so much of the Imperial Navy has to be committed to enclose a single planet seems like a problem of scale. Still, it looks like it’s going smoothly even as Tersik calls to reassure his family.
It will be interesting if the Mule is able to do something.
As “the Mule” appears before the assembly, it sounds like it is Day who is laughing. But “the Mule” is no longer on Kalgan, paying off the capture of the jump gate in S3E03.
He’s left behind a “cobalt spike.” I’m guessing that’s a reference to Leó Szilárd terrifying the US with the idea of a cobalt bomb back in 1950.
This is from Wikipedia.
A cobalt bomb is a type of salted bomb: a nuclear weapon designed to produce enhanced amounts of radioactive fallout, intended to contaminate a large area with radioactive material, potentially for the purpose of radiological warfare, mutual assured destruction or as doomsday devices. There is no firm evidence that such a device has ever been built or tested.
The concept of a cobalt bomb was originally described in a radio program by physicist Leó Szilárd on February 26, 1950. His intent was not to propose that such a weapon be built, but to show that nuclear weapon technology would soon reach the point where a doomsday device could end human life on Earth.
What gets unleashed is a devastating weapon that appears in form and function very similar to the doomsday device built for C23. Kalgan is gone. The imperial fleet is gone.
So “the Mule” can do something, and it is interesting. But it isn’t mental manipulation. In F&E, he took control of the Empire‘s people and therefore their resources. Why wouldn’t he do the same here? Destroying an Armada that you could’ve taken control of makes no sense unless you’re actually unable to take control.
C25 posits, “He knew about the enclosure.” I don’t think that’s necessarily true. This could just be a response to a retaliation that had to come one way or the other. It is probably more interesting if he didn’t know what was coming.
There’s an extended escape sequence where Dawn is trying to escape to the Beggar, and imperial troops are trying to get him to safety. The key moment is a pleasant surprise that offers a glimpse of Gaal’s abilities and evokes “The Best of Both Worlds, Part 2”.
But before the escape is complete, C25 asks, “Gaal, did you know what the Mule would do?”
“I needed the enclosure to fail. Empire needs to get smaller and die out.”
Gaal’s answer seems nonsensical. The galaxy had to fit Seldon‘s initial conditions so that the Foundation could defeat the Mule. But the Mule isn’t in the plan. Hobbling the Empire, which is also opposed to the Mule, seems counterintuitive and contrary to what we know about the plan thus far.
I am not convinced that she did, but if Gaal foresaw the destruction of Kalgan and stood aside, it would be tough to root for her.
That said, if you ignore all of the stuff that doesn’t make sense here, this conversation between Gaal and C25 is intense and well-acted. It culminates in the confrontation between C25 and Tarisk, with Dawn’s message to Dusk providing a poignant voiceover. Dusk, gazing at the communications device and looking distraught, is the final punctuation.
However, airlock doors should be able to withstand the discharge of small weapons.
In a coda, we see the Beggar speeding away from the station. There’s an airlock breach, and Gaal thinks it’s Dawn. That seems unlikely. Not only is a ship flying away from the station, but it also means Gaal paid no attention to the airlock exploding and did not attempt a rescue. It’s Demerzel instead, which also seems odd. There’s no notice that a ship has docked before someone’s in the airlock?
Demerzel is glib. “Gaal Dornik, you look a day over 200,“ or something like that.
Review:
Despite some compelling moments and good performances, there’s just too much here that doesn’t add up. Trying to condense this story into a matter of days as opposed to the months that elapsed in the book isn’t helping matters.
In which we discuss Apple TV+’s Foundation, S3E05 – “Where Tyrants Spend Eternity.”
“Where Podcasts Spend Eternity.”
We didn’t love this episode as much as the last one. Do you remember the Star Trek Episode “Court Martial?” It’s the one where Captain Kirk is accused of murdering Lt. Commander Benjamin Finney. It’s a little like that.
The climax of the episode comes when Kirk’s attorney, Samuel T. Cochran, deploys the Chewbacca defense. He starts with, “Ladies and gentlemen of the supposed jury, this is Chewbacca. Chewbacca is a Wookiee from the planet Kashyyyk. But Chewbacca lives on the planet Endor. Now think about it; that does not make sense!”
Eventually, he concludes, “If Chewbacca lives on Endor, you must acquit,” and Kirk goes free.
Also, this description does not make sense. There’s a lot of that going on.
Stars End: A Foundation Podcast 